Curse

Surena · Mar 18, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

Couldn't disagree any more. Many good Motivation lines I know don't use any IAS at all. Motivation in general isn't really about offense. There is no reason to construct everything you do around one (admittedly good) skill, particularly if it doesn't fit the general theme of the build.

Yes, there are also pure healer builds with 7 heals/1 resurrection, Fire-Eles with 7 offensive spells, no utility, warriors with 8 attack skills. They are all way bad.

Quote:

Except if your build is all about defense and not offense. In that case it would be very stupid to so. AR in the OP's build would be like putting a Smite skill into a Protection Monk's bar. It just doesn't make any sense.

Of course it doesn't make sense since nobody actually tried to bring that exact kind of sense into it.

Nobody advised to put AR into that exact bar for a better change. Why do I have to repeat that? It's about building around it. It had nothing to do with the OP's bar in the first place but it has all to do with building a good paragon, and I am very sure the OP wants to get better.

Alex posted a great build. That's where the OP should start. Things that work and have proven themselves to work.

Quote:

Yes, it WOULD be possible to construct a good hybrid build with AR and some offensive skills in it and some Motivation skills too. That this build doesn't have that it doesn't make it automatically bad. It just depends on what the player wants to do with this build. Personally I am not a big fan of hybrid builds and rarely use them. Usually I want my bar to do one thing right and not do several things at once but none of them really good.

These hybrid builds are better than all other one-sided builds. Not only are they much more flexible individually but also much more powerful when combined within a team.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 18, 2008, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Fantus, the point that's trying to be made s that a Paragon going pure Motivation isn't living up to his potential - packing your bar with Moti healing chants merely causes a lot of unnecessary overlap; and wastes one of the most overpwoered things in the game - the spear.

If you wanted such team healing, a team would be after a full-blown Healer's Boon monk, which is better than a motigon by far in terms of healing - where motigons shine is that they can provide substantial support alongside incredible damage output.

Paragons should never 'specialize' imo - it's wasting a lot of potential; like a Mind Blaster running nothing but Fire nukes or a Rit going pure Resto. Midliners, as a rule, hybrid their abilities - because they can and it creates a stronger, more flexible character overall; making for a substantially stronger team.

Waffling aside... Pure motigon = bad, because Healer's Boon would outclass it in every single way.

Fantus · Mar 18, 2008, 12:09 PM // 12:09

I never said I would run a Mot build purely filled with Restoration chants, btw. The Motivation line is full of nice things to put in other than just healing over time (e.g Condition removal...). When I say I don't usually run hybrid builds I didn't mean I run one-trick ponies. What I meant that I usually prefer to work with one general theme. Offense and defense are different themes to me, so yes, I rarely pack them together. It's a matter of taste in the end, I guess.

The only thing I vigorously disagree with is someone's statement that a Paragon build without AR in it is automatically bad. a) There are other IAS options than just AR and b) Not all Paragon builds need IAS, particularly Defensive or Utility ones.

Savio · Mar 18, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

a) The best nonalcoholic IAS option for Paragons is AR.
b) A paragon build without an IAS is either a build that could benefit from an IAS or a bad build (i.e. a build based solely on Motivation).

Shaz · Mar 18, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

The only thing I vigorously disagree with is someone's statement that a Paragon build without AR in it is automatically bad. a) There are other IAS options than just AR and b) Not all Paragon builds need IAS, particularly Defensive or Utility ones.

I'd advise you to look at Terraban graph, it's a fairly good representation of what a good paragon should be. Though if I make one, good would be more toward offense, so 60-40% or 65-35% than 50-50%.

So base on that definition - a paragon without AR is automatically bad, because without an IAS you've cut down your offensive capability. And AR is the best IAS for a paragon despite there are many who believe otherwise. Drunken Master and Alchohol/Essence of Celerity can be better, but usually there are better choice for PvE skill when you can only bring 3 and AR works just fine.

Fantus · Mar 19, 2008, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

So base on that definition - a paragon without AR is automatically bad, because without an IAS you've cut down your offensive capability. And AR is the best IAS for a paragon despite there are many who believe otherwise. Drunken Master and Alchohol/Essence of Celerity can be better, but usually there are better choice for PvE skill when you can only bring 3 and AR works just fine.

AR is certainly the most effective IAS if all you do is take a calculator and add up the amount of tossed spears over time. It's in 60%+ of all my own Paragon builds, so no need to tell me it's a good skill, I know that. There are many situations/team builds where it's not really smart to turn your Paragon into a glass cannon running around with a near-permanent -20 AL penalty though, and that's what the spreadsheet you probably used to determine that AR is so uber-leet probably didn't take into account. If you want to continue to believe that any Paragon build not having AR in is automatically a bad one, then all I can say is: Feel free to believe what you want. Who am I to question other people's religious beliefs.

I take my leave from this thread.

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I take my leave from this thread.

Ok, bai!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

There are many situations/team builds where it's not really smart to turn your Paragon into a glass cannon running around with a near-permanent -20 AL penalty though, and that's what the spreadsheet you probably used to determine that AR is so uber-leet probably didn't take into account.

Good thing you leave because if you didn't I would have love to see the answer to this question. But just incase you're still here, can I get an example of when you don't want your paragon to do damage and the build please? And no, sorry to disappoint

, but there is no magical spreadsheet or calculator that I use to determine AR is the best IAS for a paragon. I just use common sense and my head to determine the pros and cons of all the IAS and came up with that. Shocking, I know.

RhanoctJocosa · Mar 19, 2008, 09:29 AM // 09:29

why would you even consider not running ar on a paragon in pve? phael

ps shaz is baddddddddddd!1 ^___^

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Because -20AL is bad on a ranged high armor character? lol

ps no u

Moloch Vein · Mar 19, 2008, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I would definitely consider not bringing AR on a paragon if I was running with hench monks or hero monks that were packing any condition removal skills.

Shocking, I know...

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I have 3 paragon with AR with hench monk using dismiss, and there were no problem what so ever, there must be something wrong with your hench. The only time it would be a problem is for the hench monk in Factions where they use Blessed Light, then you can just use the spirit henchman instead.

Moloch Vein · Mar 19, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Could you please post the exact bars you're running on your hero paragons? Also what elite you run on your human paragon.

As a side note... I try not to run AR on my paragons. I know it's a great IAS for various reasons listed or not listed here. I also think that an IAS is actually more important for a paragon than for a warrior.

I just hate what Arenanet has done with the skill. It's an ugly, ugly nerf. If, say, they'd simply given it "you have -20 armor"... fine. Beyond fine. But conditions popping up and down on my support characters for no goddamn reason...

It just rubs me the wrong way.

Shaz · Mar 19, 2008, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Uhhhh they change all the time. But ok.

Vicious Attack, Swift Javelin, Cruel Spear, Anthem of Envy, GFTE, Anthem of Weariness(probably something else, but i seem to forget at the moment, so this will do), Aggressive Refrain, and Signet of Return.

Vicious Attack, Swift Javelin, Blazing Spear, Expel Hexes, Anthem of Flame, Hexbreaker Aria, Aggressive Refrain, and Signet of Return.

I'm just a generic SY! gon

Clarissa F · Mar 19, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I don't think he needs to show monk builds, considering someone would be a fool to not have some condition removal on a hero monk. Believe me, Dunk is 'tarded spamming Dismiss on you. It is rare I would ever have Cracked Armor for more than a few seconds.

Really, though, you could just run SY, TNtF and GftE and give all the buffs the average team needs. Plus, the buffs will cover that -20 AL nicely. With a res and AR, that still gives you 3 slots to modify your build for any situation, including whatever elite you want. Part of support is pressure, and what better pressure than raining spears on the target at high volume? Killing the enemy fast is still the best way to keep a team alive, or so I heard.

PS: sorry about the monk thing. should stay away from this before having morning coffee.

Moloch Vein · Mar 19, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17

I'm still trying to find two optional paragon support bars to run on my heroes. I'm running damage augmenter and/or SY on my necromancer toon...

My latest attempt to fit AR into the bars without the monks going apeshit trying to remove the CA goes like this:

Song/Purif., Chorus/Rest., Lyric/Zeal, Finale/Rest., Signet/Synergy, Spear Swipe, AR, Sig/Return

DA, GFTE, Anthem/Envy, Never Surrender, Spear Swipe, Merciless Spear, Sig/Return

Other player character brings third hero para for second DA with some other stuff (if that other player is there.)

Signet of Synergy sucks but I can't find anything suitable to replace it with.

Sorry for derailing the thread but hey isn't this the paragon workshop anyway...

EDIT: Wasn't asking for monk builds...

Bobby2 · Mar 19, 2008, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Iz ova to teh Darkk Sied

IAS:
- higher damage
- moar adrenaline!

AR = the best because it's
- free
- doesn't require upkeep time as it's refreshed passively

I don't run Hero Monks anymore, so no condi removal to bother me. Racthoh, I throw in the towel

Stormlord Alex · Mar 19, 2008, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I would definitely consider not bringing AR on a paragon if I was running with hench monks or hero monks that were packing any condition removal skills.

Shocking, I know...

It's a non-issue - Paragons are that damn powerful, they can support the party well enough that the hench/hero monks will be able to waste energy on condition removal with no detriment to the team.

Racthoh · Mar 19, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Condition removal on monk heroes is terrible, just throwing that out there into the argument about monk heroes wasting energy removing cracked armour making AR bad.

Yichi · Mar 19, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I'm still trying to find two optional paragon support bars to run on my heroes...

Run 1 support w/ damage, and one damage w/ support imo. the bars I use are:

Para 1 hero: OQGkUVlsJimDQ+Bbh5KM4Ks7WeD

Barbed spear
Spear of Lightning
Cruel Spear
Go for the eyes
anthem of flame
Shield's up or WY!
Argessive Refrain
Signet of Return

14 spear (12+1+1), 10 leadership (9+1), 9 command (8+1), rest into tactics

Para 2 hero: OQGkUZl7ZimDQ+BXh5KrbOs7WeD

Barbed spear
Spear of lightning
Anthem of flame
Shields up or WY!
Song of restoration
Ballad of restoration
Agressive Refrain
Signet of Return

13 spear (11+1+1), 10 leadership (9+1), 10 Motivation (9+1), rest into tactics

Run this with a ss or WoD/barbs/putrid explosion necro for my heroes.

Moloch Vein · Mar 20, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Condition removal on monk heroes is terrible, just throwing that out there into the argument about monk heroes wasting energy removing cracked armour making AR bad.

It is a rare thing when I have a human healer available. If I want one I usually have to do it myself on my N.

Small guild, you know...